Interview with “Icon v. Hardware” creators, Reginald Hudlin, Leon Chills and Denys Cowan
Paul White-Davis | Black Comic Lords
Two titans of the Milestone Universe clash and in the process, set in motion a chain of events leading to a story bigger than you could ever imagine! When Hardware discovers a long-suppressed time machine hidden in a government warehouse, his obsession with righting the wrongs of the past, those of both American history and his own tragic family, will unravel the fabric of time for the Milestone Universe. But while there are many problems with Hardware’s plan, there’s one big one: wherever he goes in America’s last two centuries, Icon is there, having lived through it! And a man as powerful as Icon knows the profound danger of the forces Curtis Metcalf is unleashing…and he’ll do whatever it takes to put the genie back in the bottle!
The Black Comic Lords were part of a Roundtable Discussion with “Icon v. Hardware” creators, Leon Chills (writer) and trail-blazing artist and co-founder of Milestone Comics, Denys Cowan (artist), and legendary writer, director and producer, Reginald Hudlin (writer), to discuss what we can expect for the kick-off of Milestone’s superhero clash.
Q: How long has “Icon v. Hardware” been in the works? Has it always been in the plan to relaunch Milestone Season 2, or did the idea come after?
Cowan:
It’s been in the works for a while. We started talking about this stuff months and months ago, but I don’t think it was always part of the plan. It wasn’t anything that we proposed initially, but it was always in the back of our minds–it is something that grew kind of organically out of where everything was going. So it wasn’t part of our initial plans. It certainly started firming up as we were drawing the series and doing our books.
Chills:
I would say that when Reggie (Hudlin) came to me, it was definitely just focused on relaunching it–successfully–this line. One step at a time.
Hudlin:
It kind of naturally evolved. I knew after we updated and established who each of the respective characters were in their individual story arcs. So here’s who Static is for the 21st century. Here’s who Icon and Rocket are. Here’s who Hardware is. Then it’s like, “okay, now let’s clearly define who they are in relationship to each other”. We really try to make more clear their connections to each other. The fact that Curtis Metcalfe is a graduate of the same high school that Rocket and Static go to and he’s that poster child, “well if you do your best, you could end up like Curtis Metcalfe, working at Alva Industries. The Big Bang, which is prominently featured in Static–he’s used as the scapegoat for why it all went wrong, right? So he ends up being, sort of a long distance mentor to Static. So we see the connections between all of them. So I said, “let’s push that even further, and let’s really get into who these guys are.” Icon has always been a very fundamentally optimistic character. Even though he’s been on Earth for hundreds of years, he sees the worst of mankind, and God knows what he’s seeing as an alien in other planets and galaxies. He looks at the bright side.
Q: How did you approach authentically conveying Raquel’s feelings about being in boarding school?
Chills:
Reginald’s process is such that sometimes he goes first and then sometimes I go first. This was an instance where he went first and I read it as you would read it. From experience, I related to it as well because I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas where at the time, the majority of my classrooms were very diverse, which some may not expect. Then I moved to Columbia, Maryland for High School, and that was where I became the only black kid in my AP classes. So I understood where the story was coming from–having dealt with some of those same issues as well. So I was able to also lean into it as a story that we were going to tell for this event.
Q: We know that Raquel is clearly not a fan of boarding school. What is it that she is most hesitant about?
Chills:
I would say that the unfamiliarity of it all. I mean, she’s pretty much–as a teenager– only dealt with Paris Island and Dakota. Obviously, as a superhero, she’s flown all over the world, but socially, all she knows is Dakota. So to have to go and make new friends and meet new people–for most people–it’s just a weird situation for her. An unsettling situation for her.
Cowan:
My favorite pages in the first issue were the ones I did not draw, because those are the ones that start Raquel in the boarding school. Just reading the dialogue and looking at the pictures and she’s very much a fish out of water. But she’s a big fish out of water, so she tends to assess situations and quickly come to a way to deal with them. That’s what I was reading when I was looking at it as any fan. I’m reading this stuff and I’m like, “this is really good. This is what happens? Oh, wow! This is cool, man.” I gotta draw the next page, so I gotta get out of that head. It’s different when she’s in boarding school. You’ll see when you read it. It’s just a different thing. She brings a whole different vibe. Not a lot of surprises, but a whole lot of intensity into the situation.
Q: Was having the book start off with Raquel going to the boarding school somewhat of a plot device to explore their relationship further and to show how she’s progressed since being this teenage girl in Dakota?
Hudlin:
I mean for me, that was inevitable. Since Icon’s long-term plan for Raquel is that look, “this planet is kind of a disorganized mess and it needs proper management”. This whole nation thing is just very archaic to him. It needs a leader that’s actually going to bring the world together and have everyone work together and a black woman’s probably the best candidate to do that. So let’s take this girl from the hood. She’s learned what she’s going to learn in Dakota. Let’s put her in an elite educational environment where other future world leaders are. Where the daughters of prime ministers and captains of industry and crime lords send their daughters. So let’s put her there. Oh, she’s a fish out of water–but she’ll be fine.
Q: How did you arrive at having Yasmine Flores Montanez be the artist to draw the segments of Rocket in boarding school, coming out of the Milestone Initiative and the Talent Development Program?
Cowan:
She was part of the Milestone Initiative, and all the Milestone Initiative people showed great promise. We had an equal amount of artists and an equal amount of writers, but she was one of the artists who really stood out. Really good, really clean style, new storytelling. Her attitude, her approach to the material was excellent, so she was a natural choice. It’s important to me that at least when Rocket’s depicted, it’s not always a male point of view. Even though we’re trying our best to get it right, it’s good to have female artists on it, to give that perspective. To give that kind of nuance. To pick up on things that–if I was doing those pages–I wouldn’t necessarily pick up on. So she’s a great choice. Those are the reasons why she was chosen.
Q: There’s always been this theme of Rocket being mentored for the future. Do you have in your head what that future is going to entail?
Hudlin:
Yeah, I have some broad stroke ideas of what that might be in a distant future. Not necessarily story lines that we will reveal right now, but you know where she might be going. Yes.
Q: One cannot help but make the comparison between the premise of “Icon vs. Hardware” and that of “Batman vs Superman”. What are the distinctions between that story and this one?
Cowan:
I’m gonna give that one to Leon. He’s the writer.
Chills:
To my knowledge–correct me if I’m wrong–but have Batman and Superman done one where they battled through time? No, I don’t think they have. So I would say first and foremost, that’s the biggest distinction. It’s not just the present day stories. [It’s] a battle throughout time and space, so it has a much bigger scope and it’s probably a lot more personal. I mean, as you can see in this issue alone with Curtis going back to try and rectify things that happened within his family, you know it’s not just about having different ideals than Icon. It’s also about him trying to fix things from his past and how that leads to conflict because of the bigger ramifications on the entire universe.
Hudlin:
Yeah, the time travel factor is really big. Because of the fact that the conflicts happen over time and space, and the ramifications of this conflict get very big, very quickly. We also get the very unexpected. Because when we talk about Icon vs. Hardware–yes, we have a fist fight on the cover–but the fact is, there’s all kinds of conflicts, in all kinds of ways. Who they are changes a lot. Who they are at different parts of their lives. Because we’re sliding around, we get to see them in different phases of their lives.
Q: As black creators, creating black characters and stories, what messages or images of Blackness are important for you to show in your work?
Cowan:
Interesting question. I’ve never particularly looked for any specific images that I was trying to put across. I can’t think of any circumstance, but I’m like, “okay, I’m sending a message to the people, and this is the way I’m sending it, because I’m going to draw that picture like this.” That’s not usually how I’ve done anything. Mostly it’s been just actually doing the work. Showing the characters. Drawing them like you would draw any other superhero book, any other comic book. You draw it the best you can. You bring the best knowledge that you can to it, and you apply all that to the work. But for me, the overall mission was specific. Which was to do black comic books, black superheroes, creators of color, in a universe that contained itself. That part was the revolutionary part. But the actual drawing of the books, I’ve never ever tried to hone in on an image other than to convey the story that was being told. The story [that] was being told was a perspective–like a black perspective. Then you got all that you know–if it was something else, and you got something else. I don’t do show pieces for that stuff. I tell the story that’s in front of me and you know, try to tell it the best way I can.
Chills:
I would say for me, as a writer across all mediums, even though I write a bunch of different genres, I feel like the through line through them all is centering black characters at the forefront of genres where they’re normally supporting characters. Obviously, and unfortunately, superhero is one of those genres as well. I would say that I do lean more towards stories that–although there is conflict of course–try to focus more on black triumph than black trauma.
Hudlin:
I think what’s been important to me throughout my career in film and television and in comic book–and it’s parallel with what Milestone has always stood for–was to show that the black experience is not monolithic. To show the diversity of opinion, and of thought, and of attitude, and of action–that’s what I love. Look, Icon and Rocket, I mean that’s the unity of opposites. Male/female. Young/old. Conservative/Progressive. Human/alien. Hardware is a real human who’s incredibly smart. He’s always at least six steps ahead, but he’s had a tough life and you know he has a very cynical take on the world. That’s why he makes some of the decisions that he makes. You see the consequences of that world view on the one hand. He was cynical enough to build a suit of armor, “just in case”. But he was smart enough to know that he would need it one day. He’s been betrayed by his mentor. So what a way to start your career as a superhero. In this story, we get to dig deeper into what really made Curtis Metcalfe who he is and his attempts to address all those different hurts and different phases of his life.
Q: Do you ever receive pushback on what you want to include in these Comics? Are you asked to water things down or change dialogue? how do you navigate that while staying authentic to your work and your voice
Chills:
I mean in my experience so far with Chris and Marquis in DC it’s very surprisingly little pushback. Obviously, Icon took a head off in Season One, so you know they pretty much let us do what we want. Which is a nice feeling for me, because I get way more pushback in writing movies and television for sure.
Cowan:
I haven’t really gotten any kind of pushback from them from DC or or Chris (Conroy) or Marquis (Draper) or anybody when it comes to to the kind of stuff that we’re drawing and what we’re showing no no not at all not at all in fact they probably push us to do even more you know if you want to know the truth but but no no no no real pushback that way just support just a lot of support it did say I just remember
Chills:
They did say you couldn’t show Alvin getting shot in the head.
Cowan:
Right. No bullet holes through the head and the brain splattering in the back which is what we had shown at first. That was the only time that [we got] an editorial thing. I said, “why not?” Then you realize maybe a bullet through the forehead is not something you want to show.
Q: You did get to show Augustus walking out of the burning building with the severed head of Jefferson Davis so…
Cowan:
…holding it up. The interesting thing about that is everyone saw the Doug Braithwaite version of that, but that whole book was drawn before. I drew that book, so I had a chance to draw that scene, and I remember calling Reggie and going, “are you sure we want to have Icon coming out…holding Jefferson Davis’ head like this? Really holding it? Are you sure you want to do that? Reggie just cackled, “Yes, we’re definitely doing that. And just because it makes you uncomfortable we’re doubly doing it.” So I got to live it twice. I got to draw it and then to get to see it run again was remarkable.
Q: Why was that scene in Season One where Augustus is exiting this burning mansion with the severed head of Jefferson Davis so important to you–other than it being really cool?
Hudlin:
“Cool.” Well, that’s enough of a reason, right? The fact that even my collaborators were like, “that’s too far,” I knew this “too far” is exactly where we needed to be. I remember when I watched “Inglorious Bastards” by Quentin Tarantino. The movie’s been out a decade or more, so I feel safe with this spoiler alert. In the movie, Hitler’s face gets shot off. We’ve all seen a lot of World War II movies in our lives, right? But we’ve never seen a movie where Hitler’s face gets shot off. Watching that you go, “who knew how much we all collectively needed to see Hitler’s face shot off”, right? “Thank you, Quentin, for bringing something new to the World War II genre, and for giving us that deep-seated satisfaction we didn’t know how much we needed.” I said, “You know what? I need to do that for people.” I need to please myself and others by showing them exactly what they want to see and what no one else would dare to do, except at Milestone. So I said, “why don’t we see Jefferson Davis’ head being carried out of the burning down building that is the capital of the Confederacy.” Boy, I can’t think of a more pleasurable image.
Q: That’s a perfect answer. Without giving too much away, what can readers look forward to in this series?
Cowan:
Well without giving too much away–because I’m in the middle of the series now— I’m drawing it. To say anything, I’d be giving a whole lot away except it has a whole lot of time travel taking you places that you don’t expect. Characters show up that you would not necessarily think would show up in the Dakota universe, but they do and it’s a surprise for everybody. So I would urge people to stay with it. Part of me thinks that this whole thing between Icon and Hardware is like the continuation of an argument between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. It’s like two different approaches to the same thing. Two different philosophies, trying to achieve the same outcome, which is freedom for their people and freedom for the people of Paris Island. This general sense of welfare. But they have two different ways of going about it. That’s what this series is going [to be] about. These two opposing philosophies are always fighting and who’s going to win. That’s why we got to check out. We got to stay around and see what happens.
Hudlin:
Well as you see in the very first issue, we get to know Icon rocket and Hardware in much deeper ways than we’ve ever seen them before. Just because the very nature of the story and how it affects who they are and getting to see them in different phases of their lives. Also, again, has really large ramifications, not just for those three characters, not just for the Dakotaverse, but for comics.
Q: What are the different philosophies that Curtis and Augustus have that will put them at odds? Is there a meeting point in between or will one of their worldviews have to change?
Cowan:
Someone’s got to win, right? So we’ll see whose worldview has to take. I mean, Icon is so powerful, you’ve got to be really up on your game to do anything to him or to affect him in any kind of way. So that’s what makes it interesting. They do have different philosophies on how to achieve things. Icon seems to be a lot more measured–though he can be ruthless–he’s a very measured person who thinks through things. He’s not impulsive and he’s not going to do things like travel through time to try to change everything. Curtis, on the other hand, is very intelligent, very smart. More impulsive, I think, in terms of action and what he will do, but he always has a plan. He doesn’t go into things recklessly, but he always thinks he’s right. So it’s going to set up a very interesting conflict between someone who is always right, and someone who thinks they’re always right.
Chills:
That’s pretty much it sums it up perfectly. Curtis is coming off of being framed for something he didn’t do, by someone he trusted and his bubble has kind of been bursted in terms of the possibility of things being fair and just. Now using his intelligence, he’s ready to fix things quickly and Icon is way more patient. From him being on Earth for as long as he has been, waiting for the technology to catch up, shows you the amount of patience that he has. I think having come from a Utopia [he] knows that ultimately, once humans internally realize that love is the answer–he’s willing for us to get to that point. Where Curtis would rather build a time machine and fix it.
Hudlin:
There’s no question that they will get to appreciate each other. Because they both have a lot to offer and they’re both smart enough people that they understand the value of what they could be. The question is, like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, can you come to that realization in time enough before larger forces take you out.
Q: In issue one, we see Curtis being attacked by a missile from Alva Industries. He immediately switches to his suit and flies away. Is this a new ability–to automatically switch his suit, through nanites, or something?
Yeah, it’s a newer ability because in the old Hardware, he had to go through the shell Forge to get the skin put on and then the other stuff would be put on him. There’s not a lot of time for that when the missile’s flying at your building, so I just kind of said, “okay, he’s got a new ability to put this stuff on very quickly.” Nanites is an answer. Whatever answer Leon comes up with, is the correct answer to how he can do that.
Q: Can readers expect to see other new abilities from either of the main characters in the series?
Cowan:
You’re gonna see a lot of surprises in this series. Things that you don’t expect. Again, people meeting people that you don’t expect them to meet and doing things that you’re like, “What? How is this happening?” So there’ll be new abilities that will come organically out of the storyline that you’ll see with Hardware. I like the changing of the suit really quickly when the missile’s flying toward him.
Chills:
You definitely see that ability used again. That’s one where it’s tough to answer, because you don’t want to give stuff away.
Hudlin:
[smiling] No, they’re just going to be changes.
Q: What are you most excited for readers to get from “Icon vs. Hardware”?
Cowan:
What do I most expect readers to get? One, entertained. First of all, just massively entertained. Like they were watching the epic movie that they didn’t even know they wanted, but now they have it and can’t live without it. That’s what I’d want them to get at first–to be entertained. Then it’s not a lesson, but they’re going through different points of history, where you don’t generally see a whole lot of black people–interacting with these people. So it’ll be interesting from that point of view, just to see how our characters deal with these different timelines and what they do. But I hope people come out of this with a new appreciation of Hardware certainly, and a new understanding of Icon–where he’s coming from. But mostly, I want them to be entertained. If they get a little bit more out of that, that’s the plus for us.
Chills:
Yeah, I would say as you can see in issue one all of our heroes are in different places. Icon is one place. Hardware is in one place. Rocket is one place. So I’m excited for readers to see what brings them all back together. Who is formidable enough to bring them all back together, and excited for them to see what villains could arise from manipulating time and space?
Hudlin:
That’s my motivation every time I sit down and write a comic book. “What new do I have to add to this medium that I love so much?” Me repeating, “oh, here’s my version of us doing this old-time story that someone’s already knocked off 30 times over the years. How do we push it?” Like you said when you pointed out the Jefferson Davis image. We have now pushed the medium to a new place and that’s our goal every time. How do we show ideas, stories, images that readers have never seen before? Not in film. Not on TV. Anywhere. That’s our goal every at-bat.
Q: Part of this book is about Benjamin Banneker. For those who don’t know the name, what can you tell us about Benjamin and what drew you to including him in this book?
Chills:
That was one of Reggie’s ideas. Benjamin Banneker is a mathematician, astrologist, inventor and he’s known for creating what people consider to be the first clock in America. So that’s where you know the joke is if they were willing to give him credit for that then what were they not willing to give him credit for meaning like he probably also built a time machine and so that’s kind of where the connection for that idea came from.
Hudlin:
Well, this last year we put out a book that we’re very, very proud of called “Milestones in History”. Part of that was because Denys and I were both very influenced by reading black history comics when we were kids and we’ve always wanted to do it. So we said, we’re going to use Milestone as a way to introduce people–not just to the obvious usual Suspects in Black History Month–you’ve seen enough Harriet Tubman stories, you’ve seen Frederick Douglass–let’s get to some of the other really important characters that you may or may not learn in your Black History Month programs. Depending on whether your school has declared war on teaching true American History or not—so to all our readers in Florida and similar neo confederate States–we want to make sure that you know Milestone’s there for you, even if your school system isn’t. We’re here to help. But when we do that, we just don’t want to go, “Oh here’s some things you should learn”, we want to integrate who these people are into the stories we’re doing. I used Benjamin Banneker because there’s the Benjamin Banneker you learn about when you’re a kid, “he was a watchmaker, he laid out Washington DC,” he debated philosophy with Jefferson Davis–he’s an amazing man. But when I found out that when he died all of a sudden, his laboratory mysteriously caught on fire and burned to the ground and all his Diaries were destroyed, I was like, “boy, that sounds like a real “wink, wink” coincidence. That’s a whole thing and he’s not the only person like that. This is part of the Milestone way. These are great storytelling opportunities that we want to make the most of—not just with Benjamin Banneker– but with a lot of characters.
Q: Benjamin Banneker was depicted as almost a Leonardo da Vinci of his time. Are there any plans for a spin-off series of adventures exploring the unrecognized, unacknowledged, adventures and inventions by him? Perhaps a super team tracking down his inventions throughout the world?
Cowan:
Here’s what I’ll say. We didn’t think about that, but that’s an excellent idea that we will totally take credit for.
Chills:
That’s a great pitch.
Cowan:
Thank you, Paul. Yeah, thank you man, this is awesome. It’s a great idea [laughs]. It’s not bad, it’s pretty good. That’s all right. I think that’s good. Thank you Paul.
Q: Icon can’t understand why it’s important for Raquel to have more female influences in her training. Is this aspect of their relationship something that will continue to be explored?
Chills:
I think what [Xiomara’s] getting at is that she knows that what [Raquel’s] experiencing at the boarding school is probably mostly negatively influencing her, even though it’s predominantly female. What [Xiomara’s] trying to say is that she wants to include some positive female interaction as well, which would come from the Love Corps. So she is hip to the struggles that Raquel is going through.
Hudlin:
Well, I’m really excited by the triangle of the sort of father-son dynamic of Icon and Rocket. Then you obviously have the sisterhood dynamic of Xiaomara and Rocket and both Xiomara and Icon see the potential of who Rocket could be. Even though they are now in a romantic relationship Xiomara is a mystery. Even to Icon. It’s really hard to keep secrets from Icon. He made a promise to Rocket’s Mom to protect her. So when Xiomara, who he doesn’t know everything about, is part of an organization, he doesn’t know everything about, says, “you should turn it over to us”, it’s like, “well, for what? Who are you? What is this?” She’s like, [gasps] “don’t you trust me?” So, it’s complicated.
Q: Curtis finds the time machine and the second thing he wants to do is go back in time to stop the Big Bang. Of all the possible things that he could do with the time machine, what motivates him to put that at the top of his list?
Cowan:
He feels responsible for the Big Bang. His invention was what was used to give all these peoples powers. So if there’s any way he can stop that from happening, that’s the first thing he wants to do because that’s the biggest, largest event that kind of sparked everything. So that’s what happened there. That’s what motivated him to put that at the top of the list. He does other things too with his time travel, but you know that one was pretty–that one was really important.
Chills:
That’s a good question because there was a line there but I guess because of the structure of the panels that it actually got cut, but one thing that people forget about is that people–not everyone got super powers from The Big Bang. Some people died. So that’s a part of it. Also his goal is to not only stop it, but to safely administer those powers to people that have been oppressed.
Hudlin:
Well, obviously his life has been turned upside down by the Big Bang. So he wants to clean that up. He sees the suffering that’s happening in his community, which wasn’t doing great even before the Big Bang. He sees families being torn apart. He sees the completely predatory attitudes of local and national government toward these kids who need help, and are getting the opposite of help. Why not start right there? But as you can see in the story, that’s one of several personal problems that he’s trying to solve.
Q: On the last page of the first issue we see Icon in an all red and black suit. Wasn’t that the original design for Icon Season 2?
That was the original design for Icon Season 2. That was the color scheme in the design–Ken Lashley did a whole cover like that and I did a whole issue with that. But that was the original design of Icon, so we’re just repurposing it.
Q: Icon was originally going to be called Paragon. Why did you change the name and is there a particular meaning behind the design of that costume?
Cowan:
I designed all those costumes way back when. We did name him Paragon first because we were looking for a name that was kind of like all enveloping. A big Superman kind of name. I think at the time Paragon may have been taken, or somebody said, “that sounds a lot like some dishwashing detergent”, I don’t know what it was, but somebody said something that made us look at it totally different after that and we’re like, “that’s not such a great name, Paragon”. So Icon is what we came up with. I think Dwayne came up with that name Icon and that was it. We were done after that.
Q: In the OG Milestone run, Icon’s Cape seemed to change shape, length and size almost as if it were alive. Is that something that will be revisited in this current incarnation?
Cowan:
In the original Icon run, I drew Icon’s cape and it was fairly large. I remember drawing it on the covers. This stuff was big, but when Mark Bright took it over, he had that Cape doing all kinds of things. It was shrinking, it was growing, it was flowing. It was awesome–almost like it was alive. I think it’s up to the artist. It’s one of those artistic license things. I mean as long as you draw Icon, he’s doing something cool. You can make that cape do whatever you want to make. It’s not elastic, but it’s certainly a very dramatic thing to happen anyway. I hope it’s revisited. I mean when I’m drawing them I’m drawing [differently]. I’m going with that cape as if it’s like the ever expanding cool cape that Mark Bright drew. I’ll never be as good as him, though. So you know I’ll do my best.
Q: You mentioned centering black triumph in your work. Where do you find the best examples of that in “Icon vs. Hardware” and how does it look different to the two main characters?
Chills:
Well, we have not finished writing all six, so I can’t say how it will ultimately end in triumph. What I can say is that at the center of what both of them want is some form of a Utopia for their people and that’s the ultimate triumph, right? A place where they can be safe, and live free of oppression. But again, just wildly different methods to get there. But there is a triumph in these two budding heads. But ultimately figuring out a way to resolve their Conflict for a bigger threat.
Hudlin:
“Blueprints for Living” is sort of my motto as a creator. It has been my whole career. From “House Party”, to “Boomerang”, to “Marshall”, to me writing Black Panther to the documentaries I’ve done, like “Black Godfather” and “Sidney”. My friends almost teased me about it. They’re like, “Reggie, we had a story that we were going to bring you, but we realized it had a really tragic ending, and we know you don’t do that.” You’re like,” that’s right, I don’t do that!” When I say “blueprints for a living”, I mean it. Let’s use fantasy, let’s use imagination to say, “here’s how we could be.” That’s why when I wrote Black Panther I wrote Wakanda in that way. They are the most advanced country in the world, and here’s how we could be. I think one of the biggest challenges in our community right now is tolerance. The black community–we demand tolerance from others. “Why don’t you get past your prejudices and accept us in our full humanity?” But as the black community has become more diverse, even within itself, we have to demand that same tolerance of each other within our community. That’s part of what you’re seeing. We’ve got a really diverse array of characters in the Milestone universe. Blood Syndicate is very different from Hardware, who’s very different from my Icon and Rocket, who’s very different from Static Shock. They all have a lot in common, but they are very different people. So there’s no presumption that they’re all going to get along and all agree on things. That’s what you’re seeing playing out in “Icon vs. Hardware”.
Q: Is this story the setup for the “World’s Collide 2.0” crossover?
Cowan:
We pretty much have no idea about that. So, I don’t know where that comes from, but if it’s true, that would be awesome, wouldn’t it?
Hudlin:
Well, I mean obviously the worlds are colliding already. Icon’s world view versus Hardware’s worldview. Those worlds are clashing on a bigger scale with each subsequent issue.
Q: You mentioned that Icon can potentially be ruthless. What do you mean by that and how does it come through in “Icon vs. Hardware”?
Cowan:
Oh, it comes through big time in “Icon vs. Hardware”. Icon can be ruthless because you can see from that first issue where he comes out with the head of Jefferson Davis, how ruthless he is. He separated that head from that dude’s body. That’s how he came out with that. So, I don’t know how much more ruthless you can get than wanting to end the Confederacy as we know it. That’s pretty ruthless. Then in the series, as I’m drawing this stuff, a lot more of that is coming through. A lot more of that is manifesting itself in the way Icon has been acting. But he has a good reason to be as ruthless. It doesn’t mean evil, it just means he gets right to the point. You may not like the point he gets to, but he gets to it. So you’ll see a lot of stuff in this series. But with Icon, he’ll get even more ruthless in ways that you don’t expect. But there’s always a reason behind it, and it’s always a good, sound reason.
Hudlin:
You’ll be seeing more of it. But I don’t think there is any need to explain his motivations, they make perfect sense to me. I don’t think he’s done anything inappropriate in any issue. I think if I had super powers in the midst of the Civil War, I’d be walking out of the burning Confederate White House with [Jefferson Davis’] head too. Is that wrong?
Q: I need you to keep that energy when you’re writing this stuff.
Hudlin:
People go, “Oh, Icon is Milestone’s version of Superman.” He’s not Superman. He did not grow up in Smallville. He’s not indoctrinated to feeling like, “let me shrink myself small to be a human”. That is not his worldview at all. He has seen the worst of humanity, and he still believes in the potential of humanity–but he is not naive. He’s not Pollyanna.
Q: Is that a function of not having Rocket [around, as she has] gone off to private school and she isn’t that kind of calming influence on him?
Chills:
This has been there since that scene that we keep referencing. So that was long before Rocket. It’s a different Icon than the one from the past. I would say Rocket may even increase it, because now he’s like a father-like figure. He feels like he’s got to protect her, which may even get him there quicker.
Q: Will we see further development of the relationship between Xiomara and Augustus?
Cowan:
You mean other than kissing in midair and twirling around and stuff? Taking showers together? I hope so.
Chills:
Yeah, definitely yes.
Hudlin:
Yeah, I’m super excited about that relationship and we will definitely be seeing more of that, personally and professionally.
Q: Leon, you’re a TV writer as well as a comic book writer. How does TV writing affect your comic book writing–especially for “Icon vs. Hardware”?
Chills: Like I said, one thing is less pushback, so that’s a positive. But it was actually a pretty seamless transition for me because of the way we set it up. Just calling it a season helped me think of it as like each issue as an episode of Television. In the literal writing, the big difference is that in TV I can write, “he kicks him in the face and then punches him in the stomach”, on one line, but in the comic book that’s got to be separated into different panels. So the big learning curve was really just putting the pieces together with the panels. Literally getting through a whole issue and then going back and figuring out the best way to make it a page turner, and which should get the more real estate on the page, and all of that. All of that was what was new. Early on, I would try to [make] every page six panels when I first started because I was [trying to] get it all in there. I realized that just becomes overstuffed. So allowing it to breathe and giving Denys more real estate to do beautiful art for certain scenes.
Q: With all that you’ve done throughout your career in movies and television and comics, how has your non-comics related things in your career affect your writing?
Hudlin:
I call it “rotating the crops”. Doing documentaries is different from doing a scripted movie. Doing movies is different from doing TV shows. Doing comic books is different from both of those things. Doing award shows is different from all of those things. So it flexes different creative muscles, but they all feed each other, and they make sure that none of them become kind of rote. Like, “here we are, another one of those.” It’s like, “oh, I’m doing this again,” and, “How do I challenge myself? How do I make it new? How do I do what I haven’t done before?” So it’s all about pushing whatever I’m doing and adding to the pantheon and not just repeating or coasting.
Q: Will we see any other Milestone characters appear in this series?
Cowan:
Well, I don’t know. I think we do. We certainly see a lot of characters. Yes, you can say we’ll see some other Milestone characters moving forward. Yes.
Hudlin:
And that’s the exciting part.
Q: How do you think “Icon vs. Hardware” will change Milestone, or the Milestone Universe more specifically, moving forward?
Hudlin:
Fundamentally. One of the great things about being Milestone and being separate from the DCU, is that in typical comics, the default is, at the end of the storyline, whatever happened, however world changing–everything reverts to a status quo. We feel no obligation to do that.
Cowan:
It’ll change the Milestone Universe moving forward in a couple of ways. One, better defining Icon. Certainly changing Hardware’s future. But it’s what it leads into that’s going to be the big shocker and spoiler for everybody. So it will change Milestone moving forward. But what we move forward into will be something that’s going to be truly a big event.
Chills:
So one thing is, Hardware has a brother.
Cowan: Right! That’s big.
Chills: That’s a whole thing. Who is he? How is Curtis going to approach that situation–even if it’s not in this arc–just in his story in general going forward?
Q: When can we expect Icon and Hardware to get back in their own individual series after this limited series concludes?
Cowan:
When they go back to their own books. [laughs] We’ll have to see. We’ll have to see how this whole thing works out. How we’re going to bring them back. I’m not sure yet. We’ve been concentrating on this giant crossover on Static on the other stuff that we’re doing and what this is leading up to. So we’ll see when we can expect them back, and then what form they’ll be returned back to their books. Because they’ll be different.
Q: There seems to be a foreshadowing of Rocket’s future in this universe. How soon can we expect to see that manifest?
Chills:
If the future that you’re referring to is her being a leader amongst her people on Earth, I mean, unless she gets a hold of that time machine, it’s going to take a while. It’s gonna take 20 years. But we’ll see if she does, or not.
Q: Will the outcome of this series be a “Crisis”-like effect on the Milestone universe?
Cowan:
Hell, we’re already in a Crisis-like effect in the Milestone universe. So what comes afterward might be bigger than a Crisis-like effect on the Milestone universe. That’s what I’ll say about that.
Q: Leon, anything to add?
Chills:
Well that’s good. That’s perfect.
Q: I think that’s all I have for you. Thank you very much.
Hudlin:
Thank you. What a great interview. So much fun.
“Icon vs Hardware” is the official kickoff of Act One of Milestone’s “WORLDS COLLIDE” event and if you think you know what that phrase means, you’d better not get overconfident! This is the ideal jumping-on point for those who’ve sat out the story of Dakota so far, because this ride is headed somewhere unexpected!
“ICON VS. HARDWARE” #1 drops February 14, 2023